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Sorry, but your opression is in another community by Marsmar Sorry, but your opression is in another community by Marsmar
After subjects like Atheism Plus, Donglegate, and Feminists Frequency have been circling around the internet for a while, I think it's time I address the core issue that these organizations/events/scams are talking about and that's the underrepresentation of women in these domains and at times, the deliberate attempt to keep women out of them.

Now based on the above comic, I'm sure my position is clear on a lot of matters. Are women underrepresented in these domains? Technically, yes. For the most part in the atheist/coding/gaming community as far as demographics go, it's mostly male. Why is that? This is where I disagree with the likes of Rebecca Watson and Anita Sarkeesian. The primary argument for them is that, to paraphrase what Sarkeesian said during both her Ted Talks session and a CNN interview, is that there's a "boy's club going on and the gaming [and to others, atheist/coding] community and the men want to keep the social norm so they can keep all the special privileges that go with being on top."

For this rebuttal, I will be looking primarily at the gaming community though some of the arguments can apply to the coding and atheist community as well. The primary problem with that claim is based on what the community is about. Gaming. Playing video games, getting the high score, being that one boss, and finishing the game. Due to the nature of video games (especially online gaming today), the role of gender (and race, religion, political beliefs, etc) are becoming less of an issue as anyone is able to play the game and the only requirement to be accepted in the community for the most part is to be good at the games and show a decent amount of respect for the source material. Are you able to run to the enemy base and capture their flag? Yes? Good, you're in. Do you think that "The Legend of Zelda" games are sexist because Zelda gets kidnapped all the time and demand that to change based only on your offense and feelings? No? Good, you're in!

Now sure people online can be total assholes. Especially on X-Box live where every other person apparently fucked your mother and have keen insights on your sexual preferences. But these are the loud assholes who take attention away from the friendly (or at least, cooperative), hard working gamers who play to win. Most gamers are actually quite friendly if you get to know them better and what unites them more than anything is the love for the game. Look at the Team Fortress and Minecraft community. They come together for their love of virtual hats and awesome builds. They make parodies, comics, hacks, texture packs, strategies, and a whole number of things for the game they enjoy. The same goes for fans of Mario, Halo, Metroid, League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Kirby, Call of Duty, Pokemon, and a lot more. So when someone comes along and say that the games they really enjoy are sexist and oppressive and need to be changed to fit that person's feelings, naturally they get pissed off.

And speaking of loud mouthed assholes hiding the majority, contrary to what these people would have you believe, there's plenty of women in the gaming/atheist/tech community who don't see those things as sexist or oppressive. They might want to see more prominent women out there but they aren't the kind of people who blame the lack of representation on the patriarchy of a boys' club trying to keep the norm. They just like the hobby/community and want the best for it, not for it to mold itself completely to fit their tastes.

THAT is why there's such a backlash against people like Rebecca Watson, Andrea Richards, and Anita Sarkeesian. Not because the community is a seeping pull of misogynists. Not because it's all a boy's club trying to keep their privilege. Not because there's a huge conspiracy against women who want to get into coding/atheism/gaming. It's because those people like the community they're in and don't want to it be changed. They don't want overly politically correct, sensitive crybabies taking a lot of the fun out of their hobbies. These are people of various different genders, races, and with the exception of atheism, religions who come together because they have a common interest. Forcing them to change that based on false premises of sexism is rude, intrusive, and utterly insane.

Sorry, but your oppression is in another community.

Good videos on the subject:
Feminist Frequency/Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes Vs Women in Video Games
[link] Feminism vs FACTS part 2 by Thunderf00t (addresses Feminist Frequency)
[link] Who's the Damsel Now? by The Amazing Atheist (Points out the problem with Antia censoring comments and not allowing the other side to make their arguments as well as address her inability to handle trolling)
[link] More than a Damsel in a Dress: A Response by KiteTales (points out how Peace and Zelda are actually viewed as incredibly important in video game lore and how Anita is ignoring many significant facts about the characters' roles and personalities)
[link] Sexism and Sterotypes in Video Games? by KiteTales (points out how male character also fall into several chiche/sexist tropes and gives a good list of well rounded, interesting female video game characters)
[link] Anita Sarkeesian Part 1: The College Graduate by Investig8tiveJounralism (Shows how rigorous Anita's views on what makes a good female character is based on an essay she wrote about gender characteristics. Unrelated to but applies heavily to her Tropes Vs Women series)
[link] Anita Sarkeesian Part 2: Burqa Beach Party by Investig8tiveJournalism (Points out flaws in her reasoning and how she's insulting an art form without having a good understanding of it.)

Donglegate/Adria Richards
[link] DONGLEGATE by Thunderf00t (Points out the error in Richards ways and her hypocrisy)
[link] Let Me Dangle your Dongle by Dildo Faggins (gives an overview of everything that happened during Donglegate and the problem with it all)
[link] FEMINISM vs JOKES by The Amazing Atheist (uses donglegate to show how the over sensitivity of feminism is not only annoying but can have serious negative consequences on people's lives)

Atheism Plus/Its members and leaders/Free Thought Blogs
[link] This is Atheism Plus by MykeruMedia (An Orwellian Propaganda parody of Atheism Plus)
[link] "Atheism Plus": an open letter by C0nc0rdance (gives advice to the Atheism Plus community on how to improve their standing with the rest of the atheist community. Many of his advice points out important flaws on how Atheism Plus is operated)
[link] Atheism+: The Matt Dillahunty Experience by Noelplum99 (Uses one of Atheism Plus' most prominent members, Matt Dillahunty and the trouble he got into with the community to highlight how insane and irrational the Atheism Plus community is)
[link] Why 'Feminism' is Poisoning Atheism parts 1, 2, and 3 (Link to part 1) by Thunderf00t (Exactly what the title says. Relates heavily to AtheismPlus and the censorship it promotes.)
[link] FTB & Watson: Dawkins Is a White Supremacist by Intergalmath (shows the kind of low tactics AtheismPlus/FTB people would stoop to)
[link] Oh, Blaghag, About Your Safe Space Demands... by Intergalmath (Points out the absurdity of the professional victimhood Atheism Plusses/FTB promote on a regular basis)
[link] Skepchicks Can't Demographic! by Intergalmath (Addresses the demographic argument and debunks the idea that atheism is primarily a boy's club/male centered community)

Misc
[link] mras and feminists arguing at u of t mra event by 18upper (The feminist in the second and fourth panel is based on the woman in the video. No, she is not a parody/strawman (oh, I'm osrry, Straw womyn))
Add a Comment:
 
:iconazabachesilver:
AzabacheSilver Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
Interesting how the image completely changes between the two different views :P
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:iconthe-green-gallad:
the-green-gallad Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
you made a big type o wen you ment to say what goes on you said what feminist say gose on and a bigger type o was when you ment to say what assholes say you said what is actually happening
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:icondiacraft:
Diacraft Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2013  Hobbyist Artist
/pol/ is that you?
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2013
Nope. 
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:iconscaley-randy:
Scaley-Randy Featured By Owner Sep 26, 2013  Student Writer
I think there are more underlying problems in video game's portrayal of women than simple objectification... 
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner Sep 26, 2013
It's what is brought up the most. 
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:iconscaley-randy:
Scaley-Randy Featured By Owner Sep 26, 2013  Student Writer
True which makes it all the funnier how they focus on objectification rather than say, the underlying daddy issues or the undermining of independent women.
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:iconsausagemassage:
SausageMassage Featured By Owner Sep 1, 2013
"underrepresentation of women in these domains"

Because their spatial intelligence is practically non-existent and so as in driving, flying, playing sports, shooting and doing math...

....bitches suck at video games.
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner Sep 1, 2013
Now that's just absurd. Anyone can play video games and taking the most extreme opposite position of the people I was addressing to the point where you sound as bad as they do helps no one.
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:iconsausagemassage:
SausageMassage Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2013
Anybody *can*, but it's really a question of aptitude: as a general rule females score lower in visuospatial thinking. That and a natural inclination to more feminine activities is a lot of the reason they won't be crowding gamestop on PS4's launch date -- not because; according to feminist spin, the game industry or the patriarchy conspires to oppress the starving female demographic.

It's just a reflection of sex differences. And that this controversy persists is an example of how ideology trumps facts in society.

They deliberately deny the fact that WOMEN AREN'T MEN.

That's why if you or I suggest a biological basis for female under-representation in any area of life, no matter how frankly or how cagily we phrase it, we will be virtually universally accosted as misogynistic monsters and, depending on where we say it, quite probably banned or fired.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/…
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:iconitachi-spirit-w0lf:
Itachi-Spirit-w0lf Featured By Owner May 19, 2014
You do realize visuospatial thinking and spatial intelligence is acquired at a young age and that "natural inclination" is actually societal thinking which is by the way varying culture to culture. (Yes, this is true. I didn't study it psychology for nothing) Also show me a study and where that study was done and how much time those people had performing the visuospatial activity. While I don't think there's a conspiracy going on, there's no doubt Marmar makes a point in calling your statements absurd because they are.
Reply
:iconcuriousprintery:
curiousprintery Featured By Owner Sep 21, 2013
I agree about the game thing, but the rest you mentioned is mainly bullshit.
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:icongoombablood:
goombablood Featured By Owner Aug 17, 2013
The only sexism against females I've seen in games are the outfits many of them wear. Seriously, how do they expect to win a deadly fight wearing nothing but a bikini thong and boots?
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:iconbttlrp:
bttlrp Featured By Owner Aug 15, 2013
NoelPlum99 and thunderf00t? Bastions of credibility both

(actually arrogant internet fucktards)

Basement dwellers complaining about the feminist boogeyman is hilarious
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner Aug 15, 2013
Yes because you're coming off as so much better. Your incredible stereotype that everyone who disagrees with the kind of feminism put forth by things like Atheism Plus and Feminism Frequency are basement dwellers really highlight the strength of your argument. 
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:iconbttlrp:
bttlrp Featured By Owner Aug 16, 2013
Not everyone, but certainly most. Youtube atheism is a mosquito-infested crack den of adolescent misery and pain
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner Aug 16, 2013
Whatever. 
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:iconjjman65:
jjman65 Featured By Owner Jun 11, 2013  Student General Artist
I'm kind of neutral/can't decide if I'm against or support Anita, but she was basically trying to get attention by stating XboxOne's E3 press conference feature no lead female protagonists.

Now I never knew about this whole sexism in video games or girls don't play video games until May of this year. My cousin, whom is female, taught me how to play my gameboy advance, nintendo 64, and my first Pokemon, Sonic, and Mario games.
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner Jun 12, 2013
Go figure she'd pick the dumbest thing possible to complain about. Don't go after the fact that the console itself is one of the most restricting video game consoles ever and the fact that technically with DRM you don't even own the games you purchase...no, complain about the leading characters in video games.
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:icondyingmarshmallows:
DyingMarshmallows Featured By Owner Jun 1, 2013
This reminds me of the new diamond store in AJ, a ton of butthurt NM's were protesting and raging.
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:iconawesomeartninja:
awesomeartninja Featured By Owner May 27, 2013  Student Interface Designer
haha this is so true. i made something explaining all the flak that video-games take: [link]
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:iconvicsor-s3:
Vicsor-S3 Featured By Owner May 26, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
:clap:
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:iconwildshadow1:
Wildshadow1 Featured By Owner May 11, 2013
this isn't always true and though i do agree some feminists need to calm down you're making it seem like they're always wrong
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 11, 2013
I beg to differ. The picture itself and the artists comments addresses some pretty specific issues. Mainly that the atheist, gaming, and tech communities are filled with extreme sexism.
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:iconwildshadow1:
Wildshadow1 Featured By Owner May 11, 2013
I'm part of the gaming, and i don't have anything to do with sexism
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 11, 2013
Neither do a lot of people who are in the gaming community.
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:iconwildshadow1:
Wildshadow1 Featured By Owner May 11, 2013
i'll agree some are annoying, but not all are like this
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 11, 2013
Not all Muslims are violent, not all Christians hate gays, not all vegans are in your face about it, not all gays are flamboyant pride parade types, not all blacks steal, not all jews are greedy, not all Libertarians love Ayn Rand, not all atheists are edgy teenagers.

Your point? Because what it looks like here is that these people are trying to use feminist theory to justify their complaints about video games and atheist conventions and I'm just shoving it right back up their rectum.
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:iconwildshadow1:
Wildshadow1 Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
I'm not trying to argue with you calm down
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
I am calm. You're just throwing out tired old arguments that have been said thousands of times to unsuccessfully get people not not criticize a group.
Reply
(1 Reply)
:iconpharaoh-ink:
Pharaoh-Ink Featured By Owner May 10, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I will only comment on what I've seen, and it's quite rare that I actually inform others of my opinion, since it seems like such a tender topic that can outrage many at a mere misplaced word, but after seeing the girls in video games trope by Anita, I have several points I disagree with. I hope I can explain my perspective in a clear and respectful manner, since it's been bothering me for a while.

First off, I am not saying women cannot or won't be objectified at some points in media ever, at all. There are points when they are, and those points can be obvious, and I won't say that it doesn't happen. But the examples Anita provides as backing to her argument seem like a stretch. I understand the points of both sides of the spectrum, but using Princess Peach and Princess Zelda as fuel for her point of view don't necessarily hold up, as they have been active, important roles of the franchise.

It's been a while since I've sat through the video, so I won't quote her directly on anything, but I recall Anita referring to them as objects and goals for the heroes to obtain in their quests to further their own story along. The funny thing is, most of our heroes in the Nintendo franchise and others are actually very silent protagonists who are not painted in a light as being interested in the princesses they are saving in a sexual or romantic way. The heroes are usually very common every day people who use their abilities and courage to fight through vast lands, facing heinous creatures, defeating humongous bosses in order to save the princess to restore order. They understand that monarchy is important in the land and seek to do the right thing in order to have peace. The hero in Mario's case is often rewarded not with any necessarily romantic gratification, as he and Princess Peach are never shown as an actual couple, but he is often rewarded time and time again with...cake. That's it. That's all he gets for going on this adventure to save this princess. But that's all that's needed, and even then it's not, and many Mario games don't reward you with objects, but they reward you with a sense of closure. Super Paper Mario is a great example of this closure that doesn't involve Princess Peach giving you anything. In fact, it's not even about saving her, your ultimate goal is to save the Universe.

Another point I disagreed with is that she claims something along the lines of the sports spin-offs in the Mario franchise, along with the racing genre, not being counted in its portrayals of Princess Peach being active or athletic, because it's not part of the official canon series? I'm not sure what she cherry picks as being canon out of the franchise, but if you're going to exclude something just because it doesn't meet your requirements of an 'adventure', despite the other games including Peach and presenting her in a generally positive light, it's not fair to the developers or fans of those games to discount something that deliberately sheds any possible gender stereotyping. The Mario franchise is known for its gameplay, not necessarily its story, so in that sense, the racing and sports oriented games would be the most canon of all. Not even mentioning that Princess Peach has a lot more active roles in the later adventures, where she accompanies Mario to save the world (Super Paper Mario), she's often represented as housing great power (Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga, Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story), and in fact got her own spin-off game (Super Princess Peach)! You can't discount the games that entail her standing on her own just because it contradicts the trope, you have to include all elements of game mechanics and research out there, even if it conflicts. So I don't find her review necessarily true or fair in that sense to place so much of the fuel of her argument on a character who needs to be helped when she is overwhelmed by situations, but can take care of herself if the moment requires it. You can't demand change and then spit on the games that try to implement it.

I could go on and on about all the women of the Mario franchise, a lot of them are shown to have a lot of power (Nastasia), often reign over the land (Princess Daisy, Princess Peach, Queen Bean), and are often involved in a lot of powerful or frightening boss fights (The Shadow Queen, Mimi, Cackletta). These are just a few examples of developed characters that a lot of people seem to deliberately forget as having very strong characteristics, not because they're women, but because they're genuinely interesting characters if you just take the time to look, and there are both heroic and villainous males and females represented in this series besides Bowser.

Another point I'd like to add is that Mario doesn't always save a princess, he saves creatures and characters from around the Mushroom Kingdom and otherwise all the time, some of them males, but that doesn't mean they require any less of his help than women do. All people have struggles, fears, or get into tough situations that they need help out of, and that's where you as the player step in. There's no one too small or too big for Mario's help. In fact, in Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga, you have to save not only Queen Bean, but her son Prince Peasley, as he's been kidnapped and turned into a dragon. Prince Peasley is shown to brandish a sword and play the heroic role, but he gets into a situation that overwhelms him, and he requires help.

I feel like in an effort to change the way women are portrayed, there's a lot of backlash to characters who are recognized as having this very broad list of traits that you absolutely cannot give a character or else it falls into a stereotype. But I feel like these particular traits listed with Princess Peach are only stereotypes because we recognize them as such, but there are plenty of women who love the color pink, love wearing dresses, are soft spoken at times, need help in overwhelming times, but on the other hand also love to play sports, engage in competitive games against men and women, and love to be active as well. Just because she needs to be saved often doesn't mean she's weak, granted it's a very overused set up for games, but it works and gives the player incentive to care about someone, not in a romantic manner, but to have concern about this land they are trying to restore order to, its denizens, and the person who heads those denizens. A character defined by these traits though is not weak or pathetic, only if we collectively deem it so.

I haven't even delved into the Zelda franchise in all of its numerous portrayals of Zelda being very action oriented and fighting alongside Link, but I'm trying not to go too rant-y on your deviation here. I feel like I may have missed some points, but I really just wanted to get my opinion out there. Again, I understand both sides of the argument, but I feel like placing the blame on characters as scapegoats just because they act a certain way that you don't feel is correct, is a little narrow. And I understand my argument isn't perfect either, I'm trying to be more open minded and delve into topics that I need more insight on. I am open to differing opinions, and I am trying to form my own based on my understanding. I do hope it wasn't disrespectful to anyone, and I hope it was worded in a clear manner. Sorry for the length, again. ^^;l
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:iconsausagemassage:
SausageMassage Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2013
Why can't social progressives be satisfied with the real-world freakshow they've engineered and stop demanding that the virtual one conform, too?

Who fucking says that a princess can't be a princess?
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:iconpharaoh-ink:
Pharaoh-Ink Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2013  Student Digital Artist
That's pretty much my point summed up. People are all about change and liberation, and they don't realize by putting down certain types of females because they personally feel it's demeaning, doesn't mean that those kinds of women don't actually exist or support it, and it's not fair to them. Maybe they like being treated like a princess, maybe they like being damsels. It's not personally my thing, but I'm not going to take away anyone's right to want that. Equality to me, is the acceptance of all, not just a few. 
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:iconsemc:
SEMC Featured By Owner May 9, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Very well done.
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:iconn3m0ck:
N3m0ck Featured By Owner May 8, 2013
:iconclapplz:
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:iconcrimsonfalke:
CrimsonFALKE Featured By Owner May 8, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Nice but I think a better title would be "your oppression is not in reality"
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:iconstarfoxftw:
StarfoxFTW Featured By Owner May 8, 2013
I take it that you oppose misandry (hatred, dislike, mistrust, etc. towards men)?
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 8, 2013
I oppose any sort of sexism but I chose what to oppose widely. Unfair treatment in court compared to women: oppose. Big strong stereotypical men in FPS and other video games: not something to get up in arms about.
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:iconstarfoxftw:
StarfoxFTW Featured By Owner May 8, 2013
Either way, I could look forward to your activism in the future.
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:iconlordmep:
lordmep Featured By Owner May 8, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Thank you for having more of a sense of humor than feminists.
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:iconsixbillionjews:
sixbillionjews Featured By Owner May 6, 2013
Donglegate really bludgeoned my mind. I'd never been so upset over my gender. Maybe one day these profligates will realize their hypocracy and uselessness.
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 6, 2013
Take not a bunch of these people are actively making a profit off of their crap. Anita Sarkeesian with her kickstarter has made more than twice the intended amount (thousands of dollars and it only took a year to produce a 20 minute video. Turtles across the world envy her pacing) and a lot of people on Atheism Plus also make money off of their professional victimhood.

I'm not too sure about donglegate. Hell, Adria Richards seems to be the only person who had justice done to her when she was fired from her job after the incident.
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:iconle2:
LE2 Featured By Owner May 4, 2013
This is why I like the Legend of Zelda cartoon. Zelda wasn't a damsel. She was an adventurer like Link. While she was a little bitchy, at least she had a personality. I think recent games have at least tried to give her more presence.
I've noticed in fighting games, female characters are surprisingly powerful. Even Peach can be badass in the fighting game she's in.
And....Lara Croft, anyone? Hello.....
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 4, 2013
Even in the actual games Zelda has a very significant role in Hyrule. She may not be the "go out and beat that enemy to death" kind of person but she holds enough political power in her kingdom that when she is kidnapped, the entire land falls into utter darkness and despair.
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:icontarturus:
Tarturus Featured By Owner May 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I like how your comic here points out the use of both straw-men by having the red-haired character says "Are women not allowed to be video game characters?" (when if fact there are numerous woman video game characters, including as main characters). Also the irony when she says "A total boys' club!" when one of the gamers she's yelling at is a girl.
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 4, 2013
The former claim is indeed a bit of a strawman. Yes there are female game characters and contrary to what Tropes Vs Women in Video Games would have you believe, there's a good list of well rounded, interesting female game characters. The second on is an actual claim made by Anita Sarkeesian in both her Ted Talks and her CNN interview.
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:icontarturus:
Tarturus Featured By Owner May 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Indeed.
If someone says something along the line of "are women not allowed to be video game characters?" its probably safe to assume they have not done any proper research on what they're criticising and it wouldn't be surprising if they'd never even set foot in a video game store.
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:iconmarsmar:
Marsmar Featured By Owner May 4, 2013
Her argument is that there's little to no good female characters in video games and that women characters call into a series of tropes. While that may be true for many characters, it should be noted how the same applies to pretty much every male character out there too. If a game has well rounded characters overall (Metal Gear, for example), then chances are there will be a lot of complexity to both male and female main/supporting characters.

If a game isn't centered on characters or something have a huge story (All the Mario games), then neither male or female characters would be well rounded.
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:iconsharpclawpokemon:
SharpClawPokemon Featured By Owner May 4, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I feel you Marsmar. Also, nice reference to that video.
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